3D Printing Business Models with Cark Dekker
In this episode we sit down with Carl Dekker, CEO of Met-L-Flo., a contract manufacturing organization. Carl has an extensive history in additive and also serves as the President of AMUG (Additive Manufacturing Users Group). We cover how Carl got into AM and discuss his perspective into 3D printing business models.
You can read the transcript or listen to the full episode below.
Hi everyone. And welcome to the inaugural production of PowderHeads, a Carpenter Additive podcast. With each episode of PowderHeads, we'll be bringing you the minds of industry experts and delving into topics that are defining how additive manufacturing is making an impact on our world. For our premier episode, we're staying local, Kristal Kilgore, Carpenter Technology's, Content Development Manager sits down with Carl Decker, president of Met-L-Flo, a service center for additive manufacturing in Sugar Grove, Illinois. Carl also serves as president of AMUG, the Additive Manufacturing Users Group. In this episode, we cover everything from how Carl got into AM and grew his business to his perspective on 3D printing business models. There's definitely something for everyone in today's discussion. Thanks for listening to PowderHeads and enjoyed the conversation.
Kristal Kilgore (00:59):
Thanks for joining me today, Carl.
Carl Decker (01:01):
My pleasure. Thank you for having me.
Krystal Kilgore (01:03):
So metal flow, the contract manufacturing facility that you run. That's been in business for several decades. Now, a lot of people think 3d printing is new cutting edge, and while it is that added manufacturing, rapid prototyping, as it was known earlier, it's been around for quite a while shown by your experience and that of your company. So how did you get into additive that long ago?
Carl Decker (01:27):
It was actually by, by complete fluke, just, uh, wound up having a job opportunity, uh, that went and interviewed for, and it was a perfect fit and, um, started working a lot with stereolithography at the time and companies using stereolithography. And I'm doing quite a number of, uh, casting technologies associated with that for an import export operation that did not pass their, their trial period. Uh, so now I'd managed to meet, uh, quite a number of great people. Uh, many of them, I still know, uh, found myself without a job, uh, kind of went forward with, uh, building, building the equipment needed to, uh, to get things going as, as kind of a supplementary, uh, service provider for, for those that had the equipment. A lot of those being OEMs, uh, help, help the number of organizations, uh, Motorola, Abbott, Baxter, things like that. And eventually got to the point where our customers were now asking us to provide the parts as well. So that kind of pushed us the rest of the way into bringing the full turnkey CAD to deliverable product, uh, under one roof, and then started continuing to grow about late nineties. We started realizing that there's a lot of potential for this move into end use applications and in aerospace and decided we were going to change the business model and head towards a manufacturing operation, um, that kind of led us to become a contract manufacturer. And I'm not going to say that that was a easy, overnight transition. Uh, we, we spent quite a while bringing on additional technologies, additional skillsets and, and really developing into what I'd say is a, a serious corporation at that point. Um, we then began looking at the, the certification processes so that we could utilize things like, uh, ISO 9,000 as a means for continuous improvement that would, uh, help us continue to advance the technology from the operators, uh, viewpoint, as opposed to trying to handle that from strictly a managerial type scenario
Krystal Kilgore (04:00):
And all that came out of the fluke that you ended up in additive.
Carl Decker (04:04):
Yeah, Yeah, It's been a, it's been a heck of a roller coaster. Um, we've had a lot of ups and downs with all the different types of things, even, even right now with the, uh, the COVID-19. Um, but again, there's still a demand and it's an amazing technology that enables anybody's idea to come to reality. And that's one of the things that really makes it exciting is you can, you can quickly turn to making any different product, uh, literally at the start of the next build. Um, so from that standpoint, there's, uh, there was enormous potential. We started learning about how this would not just need and use parts that would be put into service, but the supporting components for, uh, tooling, for assembly, for ergonomics, for sales tools, marketing, literally hitting every different area of an organization.
Krystal Kilgore (05:09):
Yeah. There's certain aspects. And that's, that's one of the great things about the flexibility of additive is that you can cover all of that without a massive factory with machines tool though, tooled up to do one specific thing. It's pretty amazing.
Carl Decker (05:25):
The, it is, it opens up a lot of doorways. And unfortunately what we've seen in the recent future, or, sorry, the recent past is we've seen the misconception where now a lot of people are thinking, Oh, it's just like irregular copier. Yeah. Hit print and you'll walk over there and it's ready for you.
Krystal Kilgore (05:49):
Yeah. Press print Mindset.
Carl Decker (05:54):
So that definitely makes a lot, a lot of challenges because you've got these, these, I don't want to say incorrect, but, but slightly misled perceptions. Uh, you can get great materials. You can get materials, which are typically in production, plastics, metals, ceramics, quite a variety of different things. But that doesn't mean they're going to match the materials that have been in use for centuries for lack of a better term with metals. Um, so how do we, how do we get to the one of openly and clearly communicating with somebody you want this part out of this material, perfect. We're going to deliver that. We're going to make it happen and it's going to work exactly like you want it, uh, that kind of the illumination, that there's a lack of standards. Uh, so I ended up helping work with the SME at that point, which my, my activities with the SME were more so to get the word out, there's a lot of people that could take advantage of this. How do they know, uh, how to use it and how to engage it? Um, these lacks of standards kind of brought about, uh, the, the search for a standards development organization to be able to lead the charge and make something that could, that could go to a more, I don't want to say traditional, uh, a more, a more robust manufacturing process. Fortunately, ASTMs decided that they would pick up the charge. And, uh, we, we started working with them in 2008 and 2009. They actually officially formed the 42 committee. And that's, that's been amazing with the connection of people. And I, I have to credit a lot of that with the onset of the internet as well, because now you can communicate with people anywhere. Uh, so the involvement of ISO, the involvement of all these standards, organizations globally, were able to come together, work together. And we realized, Hey, these are the same people we work with on a daily basis. So it was pretty much the same, the same, well, not the same people, but the same basic group of people, um, that we're now helping develop these standards and get that those requests though, those parameters out to equipment manufacturers out to material manufacturers, uh, so that we can start to get data that can go to designers and, and help them make it. Um, not that there weren't success stories already from applications that were put into services. For example, I think the, uh, I think Boeing started with doing some of their pieces as early as 97, uh, where they were flying at manufactured parts. They had to do an enormous amount of research in order to be able to get to the point of, of knowing that those parts would be safe, meet the requirements and things like that.
Kristal Kilgore (09:12):
Right. Composition to be first step first at the top of the mountain.
Carl Decker (09:16):
Exactly. Exactly. I, I like to say there's, there's, there's two edges out there. There's the leading edge and there's the one that's before where you put the B on it and basically a bleeding where exactly we're at with that. I don't know. Uh, but it's, it's one of those illustrations that says, yes, there was a lot of, a lot of money expended, a lot of effort to bring us forward to being able to make product that we can use. Um, fortunately now we've gotten to the point where we've got face shields being made out of, of 3d printed components, is that the right application for it? That's, that's going to be an ongoing challenge of economics. So I think any application has merit, but depending on the volume, depending on the way you're going to apply it, it all comes down to economics. Uh, and if the business case doesn't work well, don't do it. Um, so
Krystal Kilgore (10:21):
Wave of people who want a 3d print, just because it's cool. And so how can we do this additively when sometimes it just doesn't make sense to
Carl Decker (10:29):
You're quite right. Yeah. Yeah. If you've got a flat piece, I, I can't count how many times I've had people say, Hey, can you make this piece out of a Stainless steel direct metal? Sure. And then we look at the piece and we're like, wait a second. That should be laser cut. Why do you want to, and sure enough, you'll go and you'll talk with them at a later point in time, you'll see this potato chip on their desk. It's like, did you actually try to make that? And sometimes it's nothing more than you need a case study that shows when not to do it as much as you need a case study that shows when to do it. Um, sometimes it's not as easy to, to get people that don't typically work with these technologies to comprehend what you're, what you're expressing when you say no, that really isn't an application. We should be doing this with, we understand you want to get to an advanced area and you're, you're taking this component and, or this assembly, whichever it is and saying, let's, let's get a cost analysis and do a comparison on added manufacturing, but they're taking a part that was originally designed for conventional manufacturing. And the cost study will, will cause additive to fail almost every single time. Um, because the design intent was not for, for additive. But if you look at the cases which are making headlines that are making major impacts, uh, those are ones that were designed for ad. If they did the top biology optimization, they did the part count consolidation. They did all the structural all and load distribution analysis is that they could, and they came up with a geometry that you wouldn't or couldn't make by any other manufacturing process.
Krystal Kilgore (12:29):
Absolutely. They started that early on in the process. I didn't plug additive in later.
Carl Decker (12:35):
Yes, yes. I know you've seen a ton of those as well. And it's, you look at a couple of good ones and they're really nice. They, they, they tell a story, you get to some of those and you're, you're like, well, why you almost had it there, if you would have taken these pieces and edited to it, you'd have had a home run.
Krystal Kilgore (12:57):
Well, and that makes you kind of unique in your position. Uh, it gives context to why you lead a mug as the president of the additive manufacturing users group. You bring together that experience of running a contract manufacturing facility, seeing it day to day on the ground. But also as you said, getting the word out about how to effectively use this technology, bringing together the standards, people, the materials, people all into one forum. And so that's essentially what a mug is for is to advance the industry in that way.
Carl Decker (13:33):
And that's exactly why, uh, I had, I had served with a mug before, but I saw this developing growth. And, um, obviously I'm one person there's only so much I can do. Where could I make the most impact? Um, and I said, you, let me, let me go and help this organization. It's a great group. Uh, does a lot of amazing things has been amazing over the years has helped me tremendously. I can't count how many times I've called people in off hours and boom solution. Uh, but it's a pool of extreme knowledge that, that you really can't tap anywhere else. Um, and it gives the ability to, to get this core mass, if you will, uh, educated on the extremes. And it's, it's like the, uh, the throwing a throwing a rock into the Lake type effect, you know, how can you, how can you throw a rock into the right Lake and get this ripple effect that's actually going to go out and, and help make things happen? Um, I'm that, I'm the rock, but I'm trying to help, help throw one in there.
Krystal Kilgore (14:43):
And what is AEMO's doing beyond those, that core mass, those power users, who are the ones who come to Amos, who lead the sessions, lead the conference and share that knowledge. How do you guys help pull in? You referenced earlier those who don't normally work with this technology, those who aren't designing for art, thinking about it in those early stages, how are you guys working to help pull them in to grow the technology overall?
Carl Decker (15:12):
Well, that's, that's kind of a challenging one because I'm not going to say that it is a specific target of the group to do that. Um, obviously the, all the volunteers that help the organization are amazing and they all have the right, the right idea and the right focus. And they want to help make this successful technology because, okay, we, we all saw when everybody started with stereolithography and it was great and it would deliver your coffee and your bread with jam on it. Boom. It was right there done well that maybe wasn't the case. Maybe the coffee wasn't so good or the bread was burnt. But, uh, so we, we all went through this issue where everybody wanted this technology to do everything and then realize it had limitations. And all the people involved with it are like, Hey, we know there's going to be problems. How do we identify those problems and then control them so that they don't become catastrophic issues? Because, well, for example, the, the, the, the point we were talking about before, where you've got a few examples, GEs leap, engine nozzle, the Boeing air ducks have a variety of different components that are out there. Um, they put a lot of, a lot of research into making these things happen, um, because they couldn't have a failure. And I, I, as much as I hate to say it, I fear that at one point we are going to have, uh, a major failure happens. We're going to have the same thing that everybody said, Oh, Escalades are too brittle. They're, they're garbage. I don't want to use them. You look at them twice and they're broken. Um, well, yeah, it has limitations. Every technology does. Uh, how do we manage those limitations? And, and more importantly, how do we make sure that we don't have a smaller company? That's not a GE or a Boeing, and, and maybe they cut a couple of corners, and now you've got a part that really is on the edge and it's, it's going to fail prematurely. Um, how do you keep that from happening and keep that from becoming the, the one that, that every, every non-technical individual sees and says, Oh, that's horrible. I don't ever want that. I'm never going to touch that again. Or you go into a, uh, a regression, uh, where you're going to lose another 10 years of people fighting to try and make good product, um, before, before you're going to wind up with, uh, with positive embrace. So...
Krystal Kilgore (17:55):
And that kind of circles back to what you were saying earlier, there was a need for those standards and for building up that robustness and the industry. So establishing that and making it harder for people to cut those corners so that we hopefully don't get to that point, or it's not as catastrophic as it couldn't be considering some of the critical applications they're testing these technologies.
Carl Decker (18:19):
Correct? Correct. So that's, that's exactly the thing. And, and I think everybody involved with a mug does, uh, does understands that exact, uh, perspective and, and really wants to make sure that they're not promoting anything that would be a failure because they all love the technology. They love where it's going and what potential it has. So from that standpoint, everybody really wants to make this a great success. So while, while nobody's going there and telling proprietary information, it's amazing how open and sharing everybody is about, Hey, you know, don't do that because it's going to be a problem. You're a lot safer if you go this way. And those little bits of information, it really helped build a lot of success.
Krystal Kilgore (19:07):
Is the concept of rising waters. They raise all ships. And so everyone's in the same sea together.
Carl Decker (19:14):
Exactly, exactly. And it it's, it's the same thing. We're not, we're not a large corporation by any means. We're not, we're not going to go out there and save the world from COVID or something like that. Um, we're going to try and do our part, uh, we're going to try and make sure that we do it right, and that we do stuff that's good and positive for everybody. Uh, and we're, we're going to try and understand the simple things like, um, Hey, I want a good part. It's going to have a beautiful finish. It's got to be really strong. And none of those words are very quantitative. Everybody understands. Oh yeah. It's gotta be a pretty part. That's great. But is that something that going for a, a marketing piece that's going to be a photo shoot or is that just something that has to go and communicate to the people inside the organization? There's still a lot of ambiguity. The standards are helping make it. So somebody in a purchasing department could actually put on a drawing or on an order manufacturer to this spec or this standard. And now everybody's like, Oh, okay. I know what's expected. I know how to do that. Um, and, and how can we find out where are the areas that are going to need that additional support? And I think a mug does a great job of both getting that collective together to have those, those in-depth discussions that can, can to innovative solutions.
Krystal Kilgore (20:49):
Yeah. And, Oh, go ahead.
Carl Decker (20:54):
Oh, no. So I was saying, so that's kind of what brought me to say, you know, what I want to get back into and day mug and, and help see what I can do there.
Krystal Kilgore (21:05):
Yeah, absolutely. And, um, obviously it's kind of the overarching theme of all of life right now, the COVID crisis. It's why we're speaking remotely today. Don't have the opportunity that we need that the mug conference or rapid, or any of the other industry events, we'd normally all be seeing each other shaking hands and catching up. But despite this somewhat worst-case scenario that we find ourselves in, if one had to try and find a silver lining, it is at least from an industry perspective, exciting to see the role that additive manufacturers are filling in this crisis and stepping up and offering the benefits of that technology, the rapid turnaround that we don't have the need for tooling, that we can iterate quickly and get products out there. So, I mean, do you think that this is kind of shedding a light on the possibilities of additive that may be after this? Once the world calms down, back to normal a little bit, people look at additive in a little bit different light, knowing that it can do these things.
Carl Decker (22:11):
Well, we're definitely going to have a big awareness from it, so that that's a very good thing. Um, I hope that we don't have any negative situations where, where something failed and caused some way to get, uh, get injured or get sick because of it. I think that additive, and I'm not talking about the technology, I'm not talking about any of the things right now, but added to itself has become a real enabler of one, one quintessential of humanity. And that is, it gave hope to everybody that, Hey, we can quickly implement a solution. And everybody was able to come together and start talking about where's the points that can apply. How do we make this? How do we get them out? How do we get them to the first responders? How do we get them to the police, the fire, the, the hospital, how, and you've got thousands of pieces of equipment out there that are being applied to, to bring the solution or to accelerate the adoption of the solution. You look at it, you look at people with injection molding machines, they're coming online now, but, but it's really brought a lot of, um, I don't know, however you want to say it like comradery or, or unity or, or, uh, community too. Yeah.
Krystal Kilgore (23:48):
I absolutely have seen a lot of postings out there about pretty spontaneous ad hoc groups of everybody. Everybody puts your name here. If you can help. Somehow, if you have materials, if you have capacity people open sourcing designs, it really has created a community feeling amongst the 3d printers, the additive manufacturers of the world.
Carl Decker (24:12):
Yeah. So, I mean, that has been, that's been amazing because here Amy has been a great facilitator of community. It's been awesome with that. It's built strong communities. Um, but now we're seeing this on an exponential level and it's, it's amazing with all the different groups out there. And you're, you're seeing tons of pieces being delivered all over the place. Now I admit my selfish side. Uh, I really hope that means that we're going to overcome this thing quick. Um, we'll we learn some things from this. Uh, I'm sure we will, uh, how to communicate, how to, how to go through getting things properly done, properly applied. Um, we're probably gonna have tons of case studies of what works and what doesn't. And again, it's, it's going to educate a lot of people on how to apply it and, uh, go to the next step on that with, uh, the point of question I think is going to follow is when should you, or shouldn't you? So we were, we'd been assembled on this national academies, uh, panel to do a report on 3d printing for, for Congress to get an overview and an approval on it. Uh, there's like 20 or 30 great people. They're very knowledgeable, very, very informed. It was a real honor to be part of it. Uh, and the one comment that came up was what about legal? And the example that was given was okay, so Susie homemaker, you know, she's having a great day and little Johnny wants to go over to Timmy's birthday party. And there's this really cool helmet that he saw on the, on the internet downloads, it puts it into his 3d printer, puts it into, uh, a gift box, gives it to Timmy, opens. It loves it, puts it on rides down the street with it hits light pole and the helmet breaks. Okay, what happens now? Who's at fault who do the attorneys start to go after, because it's going to become a Le a legal situation at some point. And this is just an example of, is it the design that was pulled off of the web? Is it the equipment that was used to make it? Is it the material that was to make it, is it Suzy homemaker who becomes a liable party for it? Um, and there's, there's a lot of those things while we don't have standards in place to control and protect, uh, should we say manufacturers, be it material equipment, uh, or designers, if we don't have the standards to, to make sure that it's going to be a good product, uh, we might end up with a legal battle that that really starts to throw lawsuits all over the place. And that's going to be one of those that could become detrimental to a lot of people, uh, embracing the technology, or even people saying, wait a second, we don't want to manufacture a material that we could become liable for the design on.
Krystal Kilgore (27:32):
That's really interesting to think about, because as you said, that's a part of the overall picture, but several steps removed from the basic melting powder or whichever process you're using that people think of just the making the part, the whole ecosystem around it. And yeah, you've been thinking about that where in that line does that liability fall. And that's a very interesting perspective to think of, and that would have to be thinking about it this early in the process.
Carl Decker (28:05):
Well, and you know, it's only a question of when, before the, the there's going to be one design that's really cool and goes viral and everybody makes it, and all of a sudden you're going to see something happen with it, no matter what it is, whether it's, uh, a NAB that turn a, an oven on, or whether it's, uh, a helmet in that, in that other example, once one of these fails, and there's a major issue that happens, there's going to become a lot of finger pointing. And it's just because we're in a litigious society, uh, who winds up with the blame on that. And then how, how is that going to impact what we do with it? Um, so yeah!
Krystal Kilgore (28:44):
What it turns kind of the accessibility of the technology. One of the things we love, we love about it. It turns it into a bit of a liability, or at least a giant question Mark, to say the least
Carl Decker (28:54):
Correct. Correct. So it, again, it comes, it comes back to that. You can print anything, but should you, so, uh, I mean, and I, I applaud everybody with the face masks and all the safety equipment that PPE that's, that's being produced for situation. Um, and of course, a lot of this has been being done pro bono, um, and, uh, these would people want recognition, so they throw a logo on there. Um, but that logo basically becomes a point that becomes difficult to sterilize and clean.
Krystal Kilgore (29:34):
Carl Decker (29:37):
You almost have to look are how are you helping and how do we manage it? And, um, but again, let's face it. A lot of the people who have these systems, they're not, they're not making medical products day in and day out. They're not dealing with all the same issues. Uh, I had, uh, a friend of mine, who's a doctor sends me this picture of a six way splitter for respiratory thing. And my first question back to him, I was, and I didn't even get into the, all the details. First question was, can the machine pumping this still be effective at 18%?
Krystal Kilgore (30:12):
Yeah. Does it have enough pressure or whatever parameter it is to be able to effectively help six people?
Carl Decker (30:19):
Correct. So you're you really, again, we've got such expertise in so many different areas, but we all need to work together because it's the collective knowledge, which really becomes the key to the solution. Um, and it, it may become one of those. Will I tell you what you tell me, how much pressure you can help, but I'll help you decide how much you need to be able to do to, to, to make it work. Um, and you, you start getting a group of people together, solutions happen and, and we advanced technology, we advanced successful implementation. So, yeah.
Krystal Kilgore (30:58):
So I think the overarching theme of that is really the, could you verse, should you,
Carl Decker (31:04):
Yeah. Yeah. And, and it's a question of when, uh, we're, we're in a situation right now where there's a lot of criticality and a lot of need Seoul. Yeah. We've, we've kind of adjusted it, but I think, again, some of these, these, uh, pieces that are being printed are maybe best as opposed to going to the hospital, going to the police department, going to the fire department, going to areas that may not have the equipment, but are still first responders. And now you've got an excellent application. It's not going to have the same criticality is not going to have the same, uh, same requirements and needs as some other application may, can it help in those situations? And that goes right back to, uh, when we're talking about the very beginning of the technology stereolithography, it was great. It made awesome parts, but you can look at them twice or they break. And now we start saying, well, Hey, this technology is good and I can't use it for end use, but I can use it to do this fixture. I can use it to do this manufacturing piece. I can use it to support the manufacturing of these other components. And it starts saving costs and improving, improving products and make them life easier. And ergonomics is an area that we've, we've hardly tapped. Um, if you think about how many, how many lawsuits and, and sorry to go back to legal side, but you think about how many for, for ergonomics and for, uh, for worker protection and things like that. If you could go through and make it to where somebody comes in at eight o'clock and they're working, and by five o'clock, they're not feeling as fatigued as normal. And they're able to produce just as good a part as they did at eight o'clock. That's probably a good application. And now you're, you're help. You're using the technology to help people make products better. Even though it's not the one that goes in the box and gets sold on the, the, the store or the store shelf, um, it's still an end use part that helps a lot. And it's in a controlled environment. So company ABC could get a bunch of machines and make all these different pieces for their own production floor. Um, we do it right now where we, we make tools to produce parts for, um, for customers. And we've gone to the point as opposed to, uh, creating a warehouse of, of tool storage. Uh, we're keeping all the tools in a digital format, and now we can go through and build them specific to the production quantity that they're going to run. And this helps us get to the point where we don't have the storage requirements. We don't have the qualification and the re verification of the tool. We don't have to worry about running first articles again, to make sure that it's producing good parts. Uh, we'll still run first parts when we pull them off of the machines, but our probability of having a successful part goes up dramatically. And now we're just pulling it out of an electronic database and boom, take it from here, run it through this process, put on that machine. When it comes out, you do these same secondary processes as all of them. And you go into, you go into making parts and everybody's comfortable. It's easy to, easy to keep fluid. And there's not, not a big mess of well, you know, we couldn't find that one. It was back in aisle seven is supposed to be in this bin and it's supposed to, but we couldn't find it there. And we get three more people to come back here and move all this stuff around. So again, it's, you know, the ergonomics, the, the tool, life utility it's going back to looking at, should I do it? Should I end up making those parts? Should I machine it? Should I, should I, um, water jet or laser cut it, or should I 3d print it? Um, and helping people get the understanding of, of where they fit as these are all tools in a toolbox, nobody thinks about what type of brakes do I have on my car. They think when I pull my foot off the gas and put it on the brake, the car better stop. And how do we make sure that we've got the right pedal right pedal?
Krystal Kilgore (35:38):
That's a great analogy, but thank you so much for joining me today. Carl, it's been an absolute pleasure chatting with you.
Carl Decker (35:45):
Well, thank you very much. It's always good to catch up with you. So, uh, I'll look forward to the next time we can do it in person. And, uh, you know, if we don't do a virtual happy hour or something before that, we'll at least be able to tell us at that point.
Krystal Kilgore (35:58):
Absolutely. So take care and be safe out there. Carl,
Carl Decker (36:02):
You too. All right. Bye bye.
Thanks very much to Carl Dekker for giving PowderHeads some time for this chat, from listening to him, that growth, potential and flexibility around additive manufacturing is clear, but the key is identifying where it fits best. And then building around that, we'll be remiss to not mention the value of a mug, the industry group as well. There's a pool of AM knowledge there for anyone to tap into. And Carl's clearly looking to grow the industry through his presidency. If you're not a member, visit their website and explore what membership has to offer and how you're able to contribute. If you have questions or comments about what we discussed in this podcast, send them to PowderHeads@CarpenterAdditive.com or visit our podcast page at www.CarpenterAdditive.com/PowderHeads. We're building an archive of all of our interviews there as well as additional material that provides perspective on modern day additive manufacturing. PowderHeads is managed by Carpenter Additive and its parent company Carpenter Technology, a global leader in specialty alloys for over 130 years, our goal is to help customers solve their most challenging material and process problems. Learn more at CarpenterTechnology.com. Thanks again for listening and keep building.