The World of Academia with Ken Gall
In this episode, we're heading into the world of academia and beyond as Gaurav Lalwani, Strategic Business Developer at Carpenter Technology, sits down with Ken Gall, Professor at North Carolina-based Duke University, in the department of Mechanical Engineering and Material Science. Professor Gall is a true entrepreneur launching multiple businesses and he speaks about those experiences being fed by his time in academia during this podcast.
You can read the transcript or listen to the full episode below.
Hi everyone, and welcome back to the newest episode of PowderHeads, a Carpenter Additive podcast. With each episode of Powder Heads, we bring you the minds of industry experts and delve into topics that are defining how additive manufacturing is making an impact on our world. Today we're heading into the world of academia and beyond. Gaurav Lalwani strategic business developer at Carpenter Technology. Sits down with Ken Gall, professor at North Carolina-based Duke University in the Department of Mechanical Engineering and Material Science, as well as their most recent chair of entrepreneurship. Professor Gall's a true entrepreneur launching multiple businesses, and he speaks about those experiences being fed by his time in academia. It's an interesting journey from his role at some of America's top universities to his business activities. Thanks for listening and enjoy the conversation.
Gaurav Lalwani (01:00):
Hello listeners. Welcome to the next episode of the PowderHeads podcast. Today we have Ken ga walk us, walk us through your background, uh, walk us through your journey. Uh, you know, give us a little bit about yourself.
Ken Gall (01:13):
Okay. Um, I'll tell you, I'll, I'll start with where I'm from, but don't worry, it won't be too long. <laugh>. So, uh,
Gaurav Lalwani (01:20):
That's not never a problem.
Ken Gall (01:22):
<laugh>. Okay. Here, uh, I was born and raised in Chicago, Illinois. Um, went to school at University of Illinois Champaign Cig. Uh, studied mechanical engineering, uh, but really became kinda half mechanical engineer, half material scientist, uh, early on. And then from there I went to Sandia National Labs. I did my postdoc there, and then began my academic career at University of Colorado. And about, probably about three, four years in, um, I, I was tenured and then I decided I wanted to both pursue academics in parallel with commercialization of things I was working on. And so started my first company in 2005, um, while I was still a professor at Colorado. The same year I moved to Georgia Tech, I spent about 10 years there, built our first business, uh, which called Med Shape there, and a couple others. And then in 2015, I moved to Duke, uh, to be the chair of the department for four years. Uh, then recently stepped down from that right before Covid. Uh mm-hmm. I'm still at Duke and still working on startups. So just kinda a quick snapshot of, of my sort of training.
Gaurav Lalwani (02:33):
Right, right. Yeah, because, you know, I mean, I've, I've, I've looked at a profile before, of course, and, you know, you're, you're a part of so many different companies and so many startups and so many organizations. Uh, it's really, really interesting. Um, so Ken, um, tell me, you know, I've, I've always been curious, right? So, you know, I mean, I understand, you know, you, you have a technical background with materials. Uh, what, what made you be interested in entrepreneurship and commercialization? Right. You know, how did that fall on your radar or how did you develop interest towards that?
Ken Gall (03:17):
Uh, sure. Uh, thanks for Good, good question. I, you know, I, I remember I was, and I just became tenured at Colorado, so I kind of went through the traditional publisher parish, and I kind of worked through the papers, and I was, uh, particularly writing a paper on nickel titanium, that was my PhD thesis area, and then something I was working on. And I remember writing very boldly the introduction of the paper, and I was, my student was helping with this, and I was sitting on there thinking, you know, there's all these applications, and when I talk about in the paper, I talk about the applications of it, but I feel like none of these are gonna happen. It came almost like a, like, am I just writing these words and no one's gonna, someone's gonna pick this up and be like, Aha, we should do this.
Ken Gall (04:04):
And that really started to bother me. Um, and I started wondering, Well, even if I wrote a recipe and someone did do it, then it would be their masterpiece. So that became a little bit of an obsession for a couple months, and then I started thinking, Why don't I attempt to tape with some of these things to market mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And I've always had a little bit of an interest across science and commercialization, and that was sort of the spark that got me started. I think it was good that I was naive. It was a lot harder than I thought. Um, <laugh> mm-hmm. <affirmative> sort of charged off into my first business. And, you know, I, I, I was, I had licked the academic side. I kind of knew the system. I knew how to get grants. I knew how to get papers through and how to do the science, but I, I had no experience on the industrial side. And as you're well aware, there's a whole host of different challenges that are not any easier or harder. They're just very different.
Gaurav Lalwani (04:58):
Ken Gall (05:01):
So that's what got me started.
Gaurav Lalwani (05:02):
Yeah. Yeah. No, that's, uh, that's great because, you know, I see a lot of, uh, really great technical minds who actually want to get started on this journey of commercialization, and they want to, you know, see their products actually come to market and be of, you know, uh, good use and make an impact. Uh, so I'm always curious to understand, you know, like, how did the stars align? Right? Because, uh, because it's a completely different world, as you mentioned, you know, very, very unique sets of challenges, uh, no less than, uh, than the technical world.
Ken Gall (05:39):
Yeah. And, and I, yeah. And I think, you know, just to add one thing to that, it's, you do see a lot of, there are a lot of academics who feel, and again, it's their, their position and their right to have this position, but they feel that the product of university is, you know, knowledge and students mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And so, like, if you are training students, and, and certainly there's, those are two great products of university, right? I no doubt. Yep. Um, but I just feel that it's, for me, it's like, I like to get a step farther because I think some of the knowledge that you create, you know, there's some purest knowledge, which, you know, you may not know the impact in your own lifetime. Right. It's really hard to know. And there's some stuff that may just get flushed on the toilet, and you ended up with this new knowledge that didn't do much. But I think that there's, you know, a little bit with the bad oil act and a little bit with the way things are today with federal funding and things, I think you've gotta start having some trace to where your work's going. You know? And then that's just
Gaurav Lalwani (06:41):
My view. Yeah. Yeah. And, and, you know, uh, Yeah, absolutely. You know, and, and that's a, that's a deep motivating factor as well, right? To really see your work go all the way and make an impact. Right. You know, it's, it's a very strong motivation for a lot of, uh, a lot of individuals. Yep. Yeah. All right. So Ken, um, you know, so you mentioned very briefly, right, you know, when you were working on a doctoral dissertation and ol right? So you, you know, you've, you've really been one of the pioneers and founders of the entire NAL material system and where it has reached today, Right? Uh, you know, very select few people have had that vision to be able to, you know, go through that journey, right? And you, you're definitely one of them. So talk to me about, you know, having, now looking back, you know, 20 years, uh, uh, how, how does it feel, you know, what were the challenges? What were, uh, what were the, you know, the outcomes, challenges, You know, how does it feel?
Ken Gall (07:50):
Yeah. Well, it's, Well, thank you. I, I appreciate the characterization of my background. I, I would, I would definitely say that in orthopedics, I hope I've had a good impact. There was, you know, when I, when I really came out, uh, and started looking at night all for orthopedics, there was, there, there was some progress being made in stenting, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So the cardiovascular space had gone and, and I was, you know, collaborating and working with some of the leaders in that space who were definitely the built night all in the cardiovascular space. And it was, but it was pretty nonexistent in orthopedics. There was some early young companies, uh, you know, my tech had a little suture anchor, and, uh, that's bought by j and j, and same with, uh, ndc, which is, the company was bought by j and j mm-hmm. <affirmative>, but in orthopedics wasn't really there.
Ken Gall (08:36):
And, um, you know, there was definitely feels good to have put a product on the market that really changed people's view of ol in the orthopedic space. It's now mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, you know, it's, it's basically table stakes. Like all the orthopedic, especially the extremities, businesses use ol in one of their products. Um, and, and I think you can almost say every single one on the orthopedic side. And we, you know, had a role in that. There were a couple other key startups in addition to ours. Um, there was, uh, Mima, Matt, um, and who was bought by Striker, uh, bme, who was bought by j and j. And then Med Shape was, was recently acquired by, uh, iNOS, which was DJ o mm-hmm. <affirmative>, dj. So like, those, those startups kind of had, you know, had a big impact on, on what happened there.
Ken Gall (09:22):
And it was exciting for me to get to watch that. I, you know, I, it was always a little scary that, you know, if you look at some of the early proposals, freezing ol and orthopedics, they're pretty old. They, you know, uh, <affirmative> predated, I think, uh, me being alive. So there was some <laugh> there, some people who thought about using it, uh, in, in orthopedics quite some time ago, or, or at least that was maybe four years old at the time, I think in the late seventies. Um, but, you know, it just wasn't quite ready. Uh, you all know materials well and metallurgy, and sometimes the processes and the things are just not there. And so there was a lot of that happening in the background that helped me in addition to the stuff that I was doing. So there was a better foundation in the, you know, in the late two thousands to kind of start going after night all.
Gaurav Lalwani (10:08):
Yeah. Yeah. And would you, would you put that analogy, you know, in a similar situation where Night is now with additive, right? Because it seems like, you know, there's a lot of conversation around printing ol, right? There are a lot of attempts on making Nial products. There's a lot of work that's been done, uh, but yet we don't really see a 3D printed night n product for human use yet. Right. So, you know, I mean, is that probably an accurate characterization of where we are with ol 3D printing in general, as you know, where we were before?
Ken Gall (10:42):
Yeah. Because I would say that is accurate, because bear in mind that there was, you know, like 10 years of metallurgy done to try to perfect nial just for stents. And then that a lot of that work, some of it worked for orthopedics, but some of it did not. You know, we had to, one of our initial products, we had to machine the, the product and we could not use the same form that they were using for stent. So we had to do kind of redo some of the metallurgy. Um, you know, printing, printing is really just, even, even broadly, just in titanium started to get what I would call real commercial traction. And I think in the night all space, you know, there's, there's, you have to, we have to redo some of the metallurgy. Um, but that's also the major opportunity.
Gaurav Lalwani (11:26):
Yeah. And I just feel like printing with titanium is, you know, fairly straightforward and simple now, uh, but printing with night all is just a completely different ballgame. Right. Because it's just, it's just so complex, you know, the chemistry, uh, the properties that, that, that you can get. Uh, it's, it's so, it's so sensitive. It's a very sensitive alloy system, right?
Ken Gall (11:53):
Yeah. And that's, you know, there's, there are still, I would agree, it's very sensitive, a lot of things, you know, oxygen content, all these other things. Yeah. But it's also, you know, there are just things that <inaudible> does that we still don't understand.
Gaurav Lalwani (13:01):
Yeah. Yeah. Indeed. Indeed. For sure. Uh, so, uh, can now, you know, I mean, you've, you've seen the alloy develop on the raw side pretty much. Uh, you know, you've been a part of that journey, right? Um, from your perspective on the additive side, uh, you know, how far are we from, from, actually, you know, this turning out to be a reality? I mean, you know, talking about decade, two decades, three decades, you know, two years, five years, you know, I mean, I know a lot of people are working on it, right? But, you know,
Ken Gall (13:37):
Yeah, I definitely hope, I hope it's not three decades, uh, three decades would put me, I'd be in a tough spot. Um, I think that <laugh> I don't plan to retire, uh, that late too, later too early. But that would be tough. So I, I hope not that I, you know, if you look at, we, we've learned a lot from the metallurgy of the rot space, and, and we've messed with castings a little bit too on the night and all side. And I think, you know, that knowledge is gonna help a lot. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I think because printing has also gotten to a point where the commercial printers are, are, are much better. We're a couple years away. Like, I, I don't, Yeah. I don't see it. And I think
Gaurav Lalwani (14:18):
It's all So you don't see that yet. Okay.
Ken Gall (14:20):
Yeah. I think that's a couple years. I think that's also choosing the right applications, um mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you know, the right spaces that could go after. So I, I don't see that as a even a decade long situation. I think with better printers, that quality, uh, basic knowledge, commitment to people doing it, there's academic papers coming out as you know, on, on the topic. So I think that's it. It feels like stenting, you know, it feels like where, where metallurgy was and Nighting all around probably in the, you know, late nineties, early two thousands mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and then, you know, the products were really starting to come out, stenting, I think you look at cardiovascular stents mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, you know, by, in 2000 there was a couple of them. By the time you had 2010, they were, they were all over. They were all place. Everyone had, you know, so it was yeah. Over that decade. But, but that, that was a quick, quick evolution. Same with OL in the Yeah. Um, the rock products that were used in, in sort of the other, most of the stuff in the 2005 timeframe was pretty early, but by 2015, everyone had orthopedic
Gaurav Lalwani (15:27):
Everyone on. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's, that's very interesting. Uh, so what I wanna know, Ken, is, you know, when we talk about ol, we talk about a lot of applications, you know, with respect to cardiovascular and stents and things like that, Right. Uh, pretty cool stuff. But when we talk about additive and printing with ol, you know, you mentioned choosing an application would be extremely important, right? To determine the success or failure of, of, uh, of that pursuit. Uh, you know, where do you see a three printed ol medical device fit in, in, in what kind of an application? Would that make sense?
Ken Gall (16:18):
Yeah. Uh, couple, couple spots. You're certainly, there's I think spots where you'd want to be combining it with titanium, you know, the, the last two mm-hmm. <affirmative> OL companies, which was my own med shape, and then also Crossroads that was just acquired by j and j. Um, they were, we were starting to combine OL with titanium. So you could have structural support, but then have some active active material properties. And I, and I think that's where I see the printing side to be the, probably one of the most best options because, you know, if you can have parts of a component that are active, it can have some deformation, but also have porosity for ingrowth rather attachment, that that would, that would drive some importance, I think. And, you know, you're also looking at spots where you want, you know, a little more, less, less, uh mm-hmm.
Ken Gall (17:09):
<affirmative> stiff materials might all have the lower stiffness, especially due to the transformation. So I think there's a, a couple that would be in the extremity space mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, certainly the spine space to, you know, relatively big markets. Um mm-hmm. <affirmative>, what I don't know, honestly, and this is, you know, I've, I've become a little blinded, I'm so in the orthopedic space, what I don't know is offhand, honestly is where it would have impact outside of orthopedics. But I think that yeah, if the resolution is appropriate and the size is all right, that there's some spots that may be there as well.
Gaurav Lalwani (17:44):
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I've, I, you know, I've been thinking about and reading about cardiovascular applications as well, but you know, from all the conversations that I've had with, you know, with all the industry leaders, it seems that, you know, a 3D printed ol for cardiovascular application would be a, a stretch, at least at this point of time, especially considering where we are at at the moment. Right. You know, because, you know, I mean, these tents are, you know, 10 million cycles, Right? We talk about a fatigue characteristic for 10 million cycles, which, uh, is, is, is a, is a tough ask for a, for a 3D printed ol c at the moment, Right? So I think, uh, yeah, I don't know, you know, where and how it would fit into the cardiovascular space, but I think there are definitely opportunities out in the orthopedic space and, you know, especially with extremities and, uh, you know, some of these, uh, uh, these spine applications as well.
Ken Gall (18:41):
Yep. Yeah, I agree. And, you know, and I'm, I'm part of a new company called Pres Spine that has a, the first FDA cleared, uh, ol plate, uh, kind of plate slash staple for in spinal fusion, so that that product will launch soon. Oh, okay. Um, but congratulations, but that one. Oh, thank you. Thanks. Yeah. But it's a, you know, it's a tough space. They're, they're harder to manufacture. They're, the staples are bigger, uh, they're not in line. Um, there. And then another example of stuff, you know, there's, you know, there's a lot of desire to move away from EDM to some degree for night all Staples and other products, because,
Gaurav Lalwani (19:21):
Uh, so they are so at the moment they're edmd.
Ken Gall (19:24):
Yes. Yeah. And there's some grinding things that are used, but mm-hmm. <affirmative>, there's some other techniques that we've been looking at and exploring that are kind of more proprietary. But there is always a challenge with that, the edm, and you can't get shapes. So one, I'll give you one simple example. Like a ol staple usually has a square leg. The original, the original ol staples had round legs,
Gaurav Lalwani (19:45):
Ken Gall (19:46):
But the, the, and that was cuz they were just bent wires. But when you bend a wire, it just gives you this really big, big radius at the top. So you have a, you know, something just sticks out and hits the skin, but you really want a round leg, but not a around, but you want a flat top. And that's actually pretty hard to make, make with edm, um, just the way you would cut it. So there's some, there's some things like that. And then also I think the whole idea of porous materials, I mean, printing has really opened up the whole field of porosity in making porosity something that's possible. You know, like you would, for example, love AOL staple to have better osteointegration. You'd prefer it not to have smooth surfaces everywhere. Um, and I think that just that simple fact is it, is it, if you could make it at the same cost with osteo integrated features, that's huge.
Gaurav Lalwani (20:37):
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So, you know, a lot of opportunity, uh, for, for development for sure.
Ken Gall (20:48):
Yep. Yep. And it's also a costing issue, you know, ols a somewhat expensive material. It was interesting to see how the cost of powders and materials and what comes down, you know, the, the raw costs can be high. Um mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you know, it's also some of the costs in the processing of the, or the manufacturing of some of the components too.
Gaurav Lalwani (21:11):
<affirmative>. Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. So, you know, let's, let's take a step back and, you know, let's, uh, let's get out of night now and talk about the additive industry as a whole in general. Right. Uh, you know, uh, it all started with, uh, with, with the hip cups, right Ken, uh, you know, when they started printing all these hip cups with the, with the EB machines and then now we see a lot of spine, I mean, every spine company has a 3D printed product in the portfolio now. Right. Uh, and you know, there's this, all of a sudden, the last I wouldn't five years, I wouldn't
Ken Gall (21:47):
Iou, sorry, not to interrupt. One funny thing. Sure. I wouldn't say, I wouldn't say every, but maybe like 98% and that's like 200 companies. So pretty much you could probably say every, but you're think I could find one or two that don't. But, but bear in mind I say that joking. Cause there's, that means hundreds of companies have them, Right. Is the, the market leaders. There's no question that spine is the biggest area for that. Yeah.
Gaurav Lalwani (22:12):
Yeah. And you know, I mean, especially over the last 5, 7, 10 years, I mean, it's really exploded. Right. And then, you know, I mean, so, so let me ask you this. So, so, so when you look out in the future, right, you know, for the next five years, 10 years or so, uh, do you see this landscape change a little bit or, or no, because you know, initially it was all orthopedics, right? And we were like, okay, we're gonna be, we are gonna be printing joints and this and that and then come spine with, with this huge explosion of antibody, cages and all of these components over the last seven years. I mean, you know, do you foresee anything else that can come in and really start to take some share, uh, for these products and, you know, maybe, uh, extremities or, you know, hips, ankles, I don't know. What do you think? Does
Ken Gall (23:02):
That change? You mean something, something that would take out printing
Gaurav Lalwani (23:05):
Something that would be printed, but it wouldn't be predominantly, you know, what other areas of application do you foresee will come out in the future with additive?
Ken Gall (23:18):
Yeah. Yeah. It's a good question. So, you know, spine is certainly leading the way, right? And then I have, you know, we have a, we have a startup company restore 3D that is looking at all the other applications including spine. And, you know, I'll tell you, it was, was one thing that was really interesting, just to give you an idea, is in the extremity space, no question. Uh, the first 3D printed ankle was right medicals, um mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you know, they have both COBAL chrome and, and uh, tibial component that that's titanium that's printed. So that's the first completely printed total joint except for the polyethylene. Um, that I think that is a, is a big sign, you know, and that was part of Right. And is now owned by Striker.
Gaurav Lalwani (24:01):
Ken Gall (24:01):
If you look at upper extremity shoulder, kind of every couple months, somebody's releasing a new 3D printed shoulder, um mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you know, that's our area that's ripe for it. So those, those are on the way. I think they're not far behind spine at this point. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, and you know, those are big markets. Uh, there's possibly opportunity and knees and hips and things. They think there's some of there, those are a little bit bigger. They're a little harder to print mm-hmm. <affirmative>. But, and then the, the one space, it was interesting, you know, our business we were at, we had, we split our business this last week. Half of us were at the, um, NAS meeting in Chicago. So the Spotify meeting and the other half were at, uh, ota, which was in Tampa. And you know, we had two talks on 3D printing and trauma. So OTAs, Orthopedic Trauma Association mm-hmm. <affirmative> and you know, it was, it was, you know, standing room only type thing in those talks. Cuz there's, there's very little people doing trauma with.
Gaurav Lalwani (25:01):
Ken Gall (25:01):
You know, they're still doing a lot of the old school stuff. And I think trauma's a really interesting space. It's a spot where they're the farthest behind. They're using the stuff they used, you know, they were trained on 20, 30 years ago mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And there's a lot of questions and, you know, we've been doing cases, trauma cases, these are, you know, very severe situations where some patient has no other option, you know, at all. And these cases are now getting to be three, four years out with good success. And, you know, in these bad trauma cases where they're using sort of either mascul a technique or others, you know, these are where they're just involving bone graft. Uh, you know, often these patients when they do poorly, they have five surgeries in five years. It's just crazy. And it's because they won't, they don't heal. And so, you know, I think that these poorest scaffolds and additive manufactured device and trauma is that that's an area that's starting to catch on. But the last thing I was gonna say is at the spine meeting, there was probably, as you pointed out, 50 to 60 companies exhibiting with spinal cages. It's 3D printed at, at the ota we were the only company with a printed device.
Gaurav Lalwani (26:10):
Ken Gall (26:11):
Gaurav Lalwani (26:13):
Ken Gall (26:14):
Yeah. So it's such a big difference.
Gaurav Lalwani (26:16):
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. Talk to me about, so we spoke about large joints and spine and, and trauma, right? I mean, do you foresee additive? I mean, you know, really bringing a lot of commercial value for, you know, maybe instruments, surgical instruments. I mean that's, that's a feel that, you know, I feel like, you know, a lot of people are talking about on the fringes, but I, I don't know if, uh, you know, if it's really going to come up and make a big impact. I mean, I understand the, the value proposition and you can, you know, print custom trays and this and that, but how does that make sense from a, from a cost commercial standpoint? Do you, do you think that's probably gonna become a reality in the future? Or, or what's your take on that?
Ken Gall (27:03):
You mean for instruments? Did you say INS specifically? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think there's something there. Um, we're, we have a lot of instruments that are right now that are polymer mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, we we're using, uh, there are cut guides and things that are, you know, people are starting to realize are better in metal and, you know, everything ranging from disposable to patient specific ones. And you know, some of these things are somewhat complex and they do have to mate with the patient often. Like there's a patient specific aspect to one of these guides and those are just not, you just can't make those with conventional manufacturing in a reasonable way. And Right. I, what I'm starting to see is that, um, I think you're starting to see is that these type of guides and these type of instruments will be there, you know, whether or not just a standard.
Ken Gall (27:55):
So, so that's, you know, something patient specific, but whether or not just a standard, you know, inserter or a standard trial mm-hmm. <affirmative>, we, we are actually going to be launching as our a lift, which is interior inter by lumbar fusion procedure with 3D printed trials mm-hmm. <affirmative> and for us it's just so much faster. Uh, we can make design changes quicker. We can, you know, build the inventories, the cost is pretty close if not lower. Um, so those are instruments, right. So, Okay. I, I actually think, and there's another thing is no one ever thought of making titanium instruments cuz of cost, cost, but there's an advantages of titanium because the weight, uh, they're lighter. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, they're still strong. You can use less material. So I actually think the instrument side is gonna start, there's some traction that's coming there and we're not alone in that. I've seen some others mm-hmm. <affirmative>
Gaurav Lalwani (28:52):
Interesting. So looks like there are a lot of, uh, exciting developments on the horizon. Uh, especially when it comes to, you know, uh, additive and medical. I mean, it's, it's like a manage made in heaven, you know, It just fits, doesn't it?
Ken Gall (29:07):
Yeah, I agree. It's, I think that it's, you know, it's really the perfect space.
Gaurav Lalwani (29:11):
Yeah. Yeah. All right. So Ken, I think we are at time. Uh, I want to thank you for taking the time out of your busy schedule. Uh, and you know, speaking to us today, uh, I've been a great admirer of your work. I've been following your work diligently, have been a student for a number of years now, and, you know, I've seen all the successes and I hope that you continue your successful journey for many, many more years
Ken Gall (29:44):
To come. Gaurav , thank you very much. Appreciate it. And, uh, look forward to continuing to, uh, speak with you on stuff and work with you.
Thanks very much to Ken Gall for joining us on PowderHeads. We appreciate his business insight and experience and look forward to seeing what he does next. If you have questions or comments about what we discussed in this podcast, send them to Powderheads@carpenteradditive.com or visit our podcast page at www.carpenteradditive.com/powderheads. We continue to build an archive of all of our interviews there, as well as additional material that provides inside your perspective on modern day additive manufacturing. PowderHeads is managed by Carpenter Additive and its parent company Carpenter Technology, a global leader in specialty alloys for over 130 years. Our goal is to help customers solve their most challenging material and process problems. Learn more at www.carpentertechnology.com. Thanks again for listening and keep building.